I think on page 8 (or maybe it was 15, i dunno: look) CCP Yterrrbbiibbubium (sp?) indirectly admitted the scrapmetal nerf was an unintentional oversight and will be looked at. I could be wrong. if it's important you should definitely read posts by CCP on the topic

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4365984#post4365984

i just think if it means moving, joining someone else, maybe it should be considered. if you're capable of building ships and making it happen on your own, I imagine there are people who will have you.

actually, it sounds like your not happy where you are because even the slightest change made you unhappy
maybe you should contemplate branching out from just reprocessing mission loot, there's a wide world out there

Let no man touch the sacred cow of whatever profession I've chosen this week!

I'm hoping that maybe we can reprocess the RorqualGÇÖs and be able to break even on the cost of them. They are going to have to give it so much love, or change its roll, so it is not worthless. I'm thinking they will become the new WH closer after this patch. Who cares what side you get stuck on, right?

What are you even talking about here? What industry advantage? As a matter of fact if you are at an NPC null sec station your manufacturing job set up costs are probably less, an insignificant amount less but less. Also you'll have open research slots for ME and copying for T2 production without needing to set up a PoS just for labs to make copies.

The reason most of the stuff in eve is made in high sec is becasue most of the players live in high sec therefore the null sec markets have less volume therefore it's more efficient to just buy the stuff from where it's made in high volumes by a large number of players than to have a much smaller number of players make a larger amount of small volume runs for **** that won't move on a market where someone would rather have something cynoed in than make 7 jumps to the nearest station in an industrial ship and risk loosing your ship to a roaming red gang.

There are reasons that high sec is where stuff is made and unless you want to change the game play in null sec away from shoot everything that moves to something more productive and less destructive no amount of market manipulation will change that.

Yet another misinformed opinion. Do you actually have any context for the drivel you post?

We don't mine because mining ore is terrible isk/hr. Instead, we rat.

Need proof? http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Deklein#npc24

Look at all those people logged in and playing, outside of war time.

The fact of the matter is that we drill into the heads of every member of our alliance this simple fact: doing the thing that gets you the best isk/hr is always better, because you can just take the money you earn and buy the products you need instead of half-assedly chasing them down doing significantly less isk/hr. Right now, mining isn't that.

Why would we need to whine on eve-o when we have multiple CSM members?

You are adorable. Please keep posting this weird tangent.

Hint: no one should be mining highsec belts either. They also have terrible isk/hr. We in nullsec, however, are not responsible for the poor choices of those who live in fear of loss.

Hint: newbies are not slave labor. No one is obligated to mine, ever. The fact that you covet our tiny asteroid belts due to the crippling poverty that a highsec miner faces on account of daily depletion of highsec belts does not somehow obligate us to use ours.

I don't see how this will explicitly affect t1 manufacturing over any other form of manufacturing.

Null sec will be encouraged to localise their production across the board.

TLDR, but I have a question for the Devs...

I own junk - ships and modules - across four hisec regions which I have bought specifically for the purposes of reprocessing. If I were to reprocess them all today - which isn't practical - they would convert into perhaps 20 billion ISK worth of minerals.

If I understand correctly - and I accept that I may not - after this change is introduced, the quantity of minerals I'd get back - and hence their value - would be dramatically less, even if I skilled up to the max (I'm currently at Scrapmetal Processing 4, Refining 5 and Refinery Efficiency 5) and despite having 8.0+ standing with two NPC Corps.

Am I missing something here, or is a lot of time and financial investment about to be wiped out?

"if you put huge amounts of effort into being safer, you can be safer than if I do absolutely nothing to protect myself and indeed play like i'm roleplaying a bot"

we are able, through effort, to make ourselves safer. that amount of effort in highsec would make us much safer than we are now. there is no sense in which null is safer than highsec, your argument is merely that a higher caliber of player exists in nullsec: but these overmen would be a higher caliber anywhere

Actually it is a much needed change, and any impartial person can see that null sec should confer some advantage, as should low sec and npc null sec.

The only thing I would say is that the scrap metal nerf is a bit too heavy handed, and also the POS modules should require skills to be used.

I just love the double standards though, these sov holders are so quick to tell everyone else to suck it up, and then at the same time cry when something is going to affect their production chains.

A slight nerf to compression is a small price to pay for this big buff, along with the previous big buff to ore mineral content.

I see no KB history at all for you.

CCP are rewarding people who do these activities in areas of greater risk. This is a good thing.

correct, we should be properly rewarded for the amount of effort we put in
that we put in the effort does not make the effort free and does not entitle a lazy highseccer roleplaying a bot to anywhere close to the same level of reward: to the extent it does the game needs fixing

Heaven forbid you find a new way to make money. Hint: trash cleanup is extremely poor isk/hr, even before the change. You can do better.

The best way to earn isk from missions is to not loot anything at all and blitz them. This change has zero impact upon the best level 4 income.

They were mining in the same ways as high sec miners operate. Most along, some in small 2 to 10 man fleets. We do not run mining OPs.

Well then if you dont care about isk then you dont care about this slight nerf to loot from missions. Level 4 income beats anom ratting quite well, hence why most of null run them.

Cepters are not stopped by bubbles and blops are always around

Unlike highsec, we dont have an invincible fleet of constantly alert robots on standby that will respond in seconds and wipe out anything hostile on grid.

Meanwhile, a nullified proteus duckwalks through your camp by hitting warp then cloak, then lands in your mining op, points a dude, and lights a cyno.

Do we really have to go through theoretical scenarios here? I'm going to counter them all. We can save a lot of time if you just let this one go. Maybe try the one about how no one is mining in nullsec again, I'm sure there's some life left in that one.

And if you got suicide ganked, your tank is shit, and your intel is shit. If there are so many BIG BAD GANKING MACHINES in highsec, why not find a quiet corner and dock up when anyone not blue to you waddles into local? By your own words, that's how nullsec operates and somehow manages to claw out PERFECT SAFETY.

You're the one who brought it up. I don't agree with that assertion, but it's not particularly relevant to the discussion any more.

Strangely enough, they are improving this by giving us more efficient refines.

The light nerf to reprocessing amounts from space garbage wasn't the stated focus of the nerf. Scrap metal refines were nerfed to kick module compression in the ass, a technique used by people living in all securities of system to compress minerals for transport.

The proposed maximum highsec reprocessing yield for ore and ice is congruent with today's maximum reprocessing yield. Lowsec and nullsec were simply given more efficient methods by which to reprocess.

Man, you sure are bouncing around a lot. Do you have a personal stake in all of these disparate pies you keep bringing up, or are you simply trying to manufacture the one angle that will turn the tables on the conversation forever?

Nevertheless:

Lowsec has a massive, massive money maker in FW. If you want to live in lowsec, you've got the tools to keep yourself funded. Additionally, you can put up a pos anywhere in lowsec and refine better than highsec.

that sounds like your problem, not an imbalance

1. you do not have to run missions for an hour do calculate an isk/hour for a mission. go back and read my original point.
2. irrelevant, as i never claimed you could
3. you seem to think that blitzing every mission is always better than burning and salvaging it, which is not the case, as i stated some pages ago.

i should think that a change that pushes people pick a different profession when their most fervent champions admit their profession is boring unfun garbage would be exactly the sort of rebuttal that works when discussing making a game better

Moongoo suddenly became passive? When did that happen?

One thing that I didn't see getting mentioned regarding the reprocessing arrays. Will we be able to overfill the arrays by reprocesing?

From what I've seen, after the patch, the reprocessing arrays will have 2,000,000m3 of cargo space. Compressed Veldspar, for example, will have a volume of 257m3 and contain 690,500 units of Tritanium (6905 m3). With the intensive array, I'll get ~78% yield on that so 538,590 units or 5385.9m3. This means a full array with 7,782 blocks of compressed veldspar (1,999,974m3) will reprocess to 4,191,307,380 units of trit, or over 40 million m3.

Actually, we are limited by what can catch us. Battleships are much easier to catch than the ishtar plus the ishtar has no ammo costs and warps faster while having good firepower.

let's stick to the facts here. undocking a ratter in 0.0 is much more dangerous as anything that can catch you, will probably kill you and not just for your shiny purple modules.

I have no fear of using battleships in null. I am not however, going to stupidly throw them away to interceptors scouting for blops. Ishtars are the better option as fast worp times means more isk, the no ammo means more isk and they are easy to use.

You're absolutely right - there are both game mechanics and EULA provisions that prevent highsec players from paying attention to what's going on around them, watching local, setting standings, creating their own intel channels and using dscan.

You keep drawing parallels to nullsec being this perfectly safe bastion of plenty, a situation that you yourself admit is only possible when all actors are rational and operating with perfect attention and perfect knowledge of all game mechanics, including metagame mechanics such as awoxing, and then, in the VERY SAME BREATH, refuse to apply the same standards to highsec. All the weird, one-off vignettes you keep proposing are equally valid in highsec, yet for some reason they don't apply in your head. Why is that?

This is not the case. Where is CONCORD in nullsec, for example?

Nope. CONCORD has perfect response time, never goes to sleep, can neutralize enemies, and destroy them without fail. It's not even comparable.

Please show me friends that don't sleep, have perfect response times, have full capacitor neuts, infinite strength jams, and instakill weapons.

The two things are not. comparable. They just aren't. No matter how much you want them to be, they aren't.

Nice try attempting to abandon your ridiculous assertion that a player gang is somehow equivalent to CONCORD, but rehashing this argument isn't going to do it.

I'm still waiting -- how can a player protection gang match CONCORD in terms of providing security to a space? Come on, we're waiting.

Bad example; interceptors are uncatchable. An interceptor can and will completely ignore your mythical gatecamp, land on grid with the person he wants to kill, using his awoxer warpin, and due to his inherently superior warp speed, land and have plenty of time to execute the miner or ratter before help can arrive. And even if he can't, the interceptor just uses his 2 second align to warp off.

Just stop. You are going nowhere.

There's nothing mystical or special about nullsec game mechanics that somehow allow nullsec people to enjoy better security. Bubbles don't even do this due to the prevalence of nullified T3 cruisers with cynos and interceptors. Every tool we have in nullsec is available in highsec, plus you have CONCORD limiting the engagement window to several seconds, no ability to use cynos to circumvent intel, and you can always dock no matter where you go. You have to be deliberately obtuse to think that highsec is less safe than nullsec.

i appreciate that mario putzo is here to demonstrate the type of thinking about the game you need to oppose this change

It took me 20 seconds to locate a single instance of a solo interceptor killing a ratter, by the way.

it is true, an eve full of mario putzos would not need balancing because nobody would be able to figure out what the best thing was and do that

So, according to this post, because a completely different situation (a "bing" fitted BS afk on a gate) might play out differently, the original situation (unfit BS afk on a gate) is invalid. Brilliant!

The funny thing about your posts is that we actually do mine in nullsec. Need proof?

https://zkillboard.com/region/10000035/group/543/ <--- exhumer losses in Deklein.
https://zkillboard.com/region/10000035/group/463/ <--- mining barges lost in Dekein.

"Proof" is a thing your posts tend to lack, FYI. Anecdotes are not the same thing.

Even with thousands of exhumer and barge losses, we still apparently need to import minerals from highsec. I wonder why that might be?

Naw, I was proving that mining does occur in Deklein. You can also verify this by going to your Star Map, going to the options and choosing Development Indices > Industrial. Any system that has a glow around it is a place where mining has occurred in the last 24 hours. Unfortunately, as I don't have Eve installed on this machine, I can't make a screenshot. You'll have to do it yourself.

You appear to have discovered that people mostly rat in areas with the truesec to warrant it. Good job.

Also, Goonswarm Federation has no rights to rat in any of that space. Also, Paragon Soul and Omist aren't even held by CFC entities.

Also, colors on Dotlan indicating amount of ratting being done are relative to the largest value in that region.

Also, mining does not show up on dotlan. Plexing also shows very poorly, but you should know that because you ninjarun plexes in our space. Oh wait, you haven't proven that yet.

It's concrete evidence of activity in Deklein, the only region Goonswarm Federation line members are allowed to use to earn money. Other regions are irrelevant to this discussion; we can't control how others in the coalition use their space and, frankly, don't care as long as they are participating in strategic ops and don't sell supercaps to our enemies.

we're not discussing the change right now, we are discussing your incoherent babble

what is relevant to the change and what is relevant to mario putzo's house of crazy are two very different things

I just want to know why this is all a big "CFC conspiracy" to make hi sec suffer when PL and N3 own a large portion of space and possibly mine more in their area as it is deathly quiet to roaming people.

The point here is even if you take out any real or alleged nullsec bias in regards to killing scrap metal refines, there are still plenty of good reasons to do it.

In your world, is it somehow not allowed or impossible to use jump freighters to move 425mm railgun Is to lowsec, where the minerals can be melted and used to build in the same station?

Hint: this is how we do it in nullsec currently, minus the whole "melt and build in the same station" bit (since that is not possible.)

Mining profitability is unchanged; miners just need to sell compressed ore instead of minerals.

The scavenger profession is hardly a profession; it is a pittance of minerals and a marginal number of people are doing it, at best.

God damn you are such an idiot you have to be trolling. You realize that goo is alliance level income right? The average null alliance line member does not have their own goo moon.

You do realize that nullsec contains players that are not goons right?

Players don't use their space for many reasons. Maybe they're off staging in a system waiting to respond for a fleet. More than likely for the vast majority of players (those that play 0-4 hours per day) would be more than happy to rat or mine in nullsec if it was easy and consistent but often times its not. If you don't want to deal with hauling **** around in nullsec it just adds to the unatractiveness. It can be hard to restock on ammo and drones. it is usually quite hard(annoying) to get a new ship if you lose one (can't autopilot to jita and back). Usually you can't just login and hit undock without checking local/intel, well you could but once in a while you'd find yourself getting ganked. Most guys stay in highsec cause they enjoy the consistency. Those who hang out in low/null most of the time enjoy their experience there.

*sighs* just had to read through 3 pages of mario vs goons drivel.... Can you guys create your own thread, GD would be more appropriate.

These changes offer a reason to leave high sec for miners. 20% more isk infact. It also makes POS usefull and gives us a reason to use compression rather that exploiting a loophole with 425s. Plus miners everywhere get a little buff to income.

miners have never been rewarded for leaving high sec. They were infact punished with lower refine rates and higher costs.

We earn more in high sec. Anoms have been nerfed in the last year so those 30 mil ticks dont happen anymore. The vindicators are gone. Now you get 90mil/hr in them while missions in high sec offer 100mil/hr +.

Mining also works out better in high sec right not despite null having more high ends. Hence why the bots chose to be in high sec, its where the isk is.

We also do not have personal moons. Why people in high sec think we do is a mystery.

The change, as proposed, actually provides this "de-clustering" as you've described by making it vastly more cost-efficient to jump ore out of Jita into nullsec, where it can be refined at a bonus, and exporting minerals back to highsec.

The outpost costs 60 billion to upgrade.

Losing an egg still hurts.

Easier said than done.

Not only might it die before it can hatch but they can take the station off you when it is built.

Just ask N3 how many trillions they lost when we deadzoned their staging system.